The Matrix Resurrections

In December 2021, writer and director Lana Wachowski delivered the fourth movie in the Matrix universe, The Matrix Resurrections, after a 20-year wait.  Shanny invited Kelly Wilz, Professor of Communications, and Cary Elza, Associate Professor of Media Studies, to chat about the the new film and the entire Matrix saga.  What made the original film so impactful?  Why did Lana Wachowski return to the world she co-created with her sister?  Which narrative themes have changed, and which have stayed the same, since the original Matrix film?  And why do we love Keanu Reeves?  That's what this conversation is all about.

Extra credit readings for this episode:

• Emily VanDerWerff, "The Matrix 4," https://www.vox.com/culture/22847558/the-matrix-resurrections-4-spoilers-review-neo-therapy-mental-health-trauma
• Connie Hanzhang Jin, "Why Trans Fans Connect to 'The Matrix'" https://www.kqed.org/arts/13907504/trans-fans-the-matrix-lilly-lana-wachowski
• John Wilmes, "The Twisted, Stolen Legacy of the 'Matrix' Red Pill," https://www.theringer.com/movies/2021/12/21/22847157/the-matrix-red-pill-legacy

What did you think of The Matrix Resurrections?  Share your thoughts  on our Facebook page:  www.facebook.com/NoCureforCuriosityPodcast.  Or send comments to nocureforcuriosity@outlook.com.

Our intro music was written by UWSP music student Derek Carden and our logo is by artist and graphic designer Ryan Dreimiller.

Transcript

Kelly Wilz: 0:00

This is why I love Keanu. He dates age appropriate

Cary Elza: 0:02

He's a national treasure he must be protected at women all costs.

Shanny Luft: 0:11

Welcome to no cure for curiosity, a podcast for curious people. I am Shanny luft, associate professor of religious studies, and Associate Dean of general education and honors at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point. In today's episode, I brought back my friends of the show Kelly Wilz and Cary Elza to talk to me about the Matrix Resurrections by Lana Wachowski. I thought it was pronounced Wachelski. But I've heard some people say it's Whakoski. I think I end up going back and forth during our conversation. Kelly Wilz is a Professor of Communication at UWSP. She teaches courses on women and gender studies, and her research focuses on the intersection of media, gender, politics, and popular culture. And she is the recent author of the book Resisting Rape Culture

through Popular Culture: 0:55

Sex after #MeToo. Cary Elza is associate professor of Media Studies at UWSP, where she teaches courses on screenwriting, film and media analysis, history and genre. Her publications include articles and chapters on children's and teen media, science fiction and fantasy series, new media and fandom and early animation. The Matrix Resurrections is a return to a world that Lana and Lilly Wachowski launched in 1999 with The Matrix, and then followed up in 2003 with the Matrix Reloaded and The Matrix Revolutions. I'm a huge fan of the Wachowskis because they have never been afraid to take chances, even though their later films like Speed Racer, Cloud Atlas, and Jupiter Ascending, never captured the critical and popular attention that The Matrix did. In my conversation with Kelly and Cary, we talked about the cultural impact of the original Matrix film now over 20 years old. We talked about why Lana Wachowski returned to the world of The Matrix. And how this fourth film, The Matrix Resurrections explores and reimagines some of the themes from the earlier films. We also consider how the cultural politics of the last two decades inform this new film. In our conversation, Kelly, Cary, and I assume that you've already seen The Matrix Resurrections. If you haven't, and you want to avoid spoilers, check out the film before listening to this podcast, we start the conversation with me thinking about how much our relationship to technology has changed since 1999. I made a list of what technology was like in 1999, when The Matrix came out, there was no iPhone in 1999, that didn't actually come out until 2007. There was no YouTube, there was no Facebook, there was no iTunes. The Internet, of course existed, but it was really slow. It was not the place you went to watch movies or even videos Amazon.com existed, it was a bookstore. And I'm not even sure if books are the I'm sure actually that books are not the majority of their business today. Any other thoughts? Any memories about what you what your experience was with tech? I think I had an AOL account in 1990.

Kelly Wilz: 3:11

And we I remember getting my first smartphone in like -- what like 2000-, like 8, maybe right or 9 or maybe even later -- and being like, this is a computer like I was just blown away at how much I could do. And then I got my first iPhone, holy crap. And now I'm of course, like an iPhone junkie, whatever,

Shanny Luft: 3:29

Cary, what do you remember from 1999?

Cary Elza: 3:31

You are making me so nostalgic litany of technological deficiencies. Oh, it was so great, right? I mean, if you wanted to meet up with your friends, so you had to drive to the 711 and find a fun booth. So I mean, like if you were out and about.

Shanny Luft: 3:48

And then the other thing, there's somebody thinks about the original Matrix movie, because it had a big impact on popular culture and media. I remember when I saw the movie for the first time, that bullet time effect when Neo dodges the bullet the audience cheered that really struck me I never forgot that, that people watching the scene of Neo dodging a bullet in that kind of cool slow motion way that the witch housekeys imagined it. That was such a visually inventive thing, that it just blew people away there was it was so advanced technologically what are some of the other ways that the matrix influenced culture or popular culture?

Cary Elza: 4:26

Um, I mean, I actually feel like this movie had a significant impact on what I ended up studying. You know, I was in college, and I already kind of knew that I wanted to do film but special effects in the matrix. And you're and this idea that involves this, like emotional catharsis that the audience wants to share, and they can't help but express themselves in the theater. That joy is one of the things that drew me to film studies to begin with. But yeah, I mean, I think that I think that the the sheer joy in the spectacle of technology. You know, a lot of people have written about that, then and sense, but that struck me on like a visceral affective level.

Shanny Luft: 5:13

So the fourth movie makes not only makes a lot of references to other movies, but characters say lines from other movies, they actually, I was surprised how often they cut two scenes from the movies. And I wondered if some of that was to help along the audience that might have remembered the first Matrix movie, but didn't have it in the forefront of their head, like super fans would. I wonder if the fourth movie was like, aware of the problem of some of its audience can quote back entire paragraphs of dialogue.

Kelly Wilz: 5:45

Right.

Shanny Luft: 5:46

And others remember the character Neo and thought he was kind of cool. And you're trying to now be trying to appeal to this much bigger range.

Kelly Wilz: 5:55

I mean, that was me. I went in. I didn't -- I have not seen the films I did not rewatch the entire trilogy before I went to see Resurrections, because I was just like, I don't have that much time. But I want to see this movie. And so for me, I thought that was helpful in terms of like, referencing, and I knew enough I mean, again, like, yes, it's a complicated movie, but it's not complicated. So much so and it was such a cultural phenomenon at the time, but I think if you're going to go see it, that you have at least some reference, maybe to what it was about, and so maybe you forgot that like how Neo died. I did, I forgot that he died. I knew something happened, right? I thought maybe it was Trinity who died I couldn't remember. But that was sort of important for me as a refresher, they couldn't do like a, you know, you know how in the beginning of summer, like the TV series like last Friday, blah, blah, blah. This happened, you know, on our last show, they couldn't do that. And so I think I think you're smart to point out the fact that they had to like actually use those actual scenes tore to make sense like with with Neo's lips being sewn together and then having the the new I can't remember his name the new actor who plays Agent Smith, the his lips being so like that, too. I think in order to make that make sense. They have to show those flashes from from scene to scene.

Shanny Luft: 7:05

Jonathan Groff is that actor?

Kelly Wilz: 7:07

Yes.

Shanny Luft: 7:08

It's Jonathan Groff from Hamilton?

Kelly Wilz: 7:10

Yes. And

Cary Elza: 7:11

he is a he's the kind

Kelly Wilz: 7:13

of frozen.

Cary Elza: 7:15

So we were watching this movie. I was like, That's Christoph. Like, why is this voice so familiar? Oh, I love him.

Kelly Wilz: 7:23

Yes.

Shanny Luft: 7:25

Oh, I want to just quickly touch on just a couple other impacts that I could think of, both in and outside of the movie. One is just virtual reality. I feel like right after or around that time, there was then a lot of virtual reality films, and a lot of conversation. And we are now only 20 years later, getting to the point where that kind of thing is a reality that people can purchase. So the movies were ahead of their time, but just a little bit ahead of their time. The other thing we have to comment on is trans visibility. The two people that made the Matrix movies the Wachowskis -- I pronounce it Wachelski. Does anyone know if it's Whakaski or Koski?

Cary Elza: 8:00

But I could be wrong.

Kelly Wilz: 8:01

Whakoski

Shanny Luft: 8:02

Okay. All right. So I've heard it pronounced both ways. I'll go with Wachowski I'll go with the majority vote on this one. So here's something I wanted to share with you and get your thoughts about why whenever you watch the original three movies, they all end by saying the scene goes black. And then in that green font, it says, By The Wachowski Brothers, and even now when you watch the movies today, even though they're streaming on HBO, they didn't change that it still says Wachowski Brothers,

Kelly Wilz: 8:31

I noticed that too.

Shanny Luft: 8:32

They were made so famous by these movies. But they were made famous as brothers. There's something about that I found really interesting, because I thought it last night, I don't have a totally formed in my head. But there was something about the fact that when they came out as trans, it's I think it maybe had a bigger impact, because part of their brain was that they were brothers.

Kelly Wilz: 8:51

I mean, just my gut instinct is that maybe the Warner Brothers didn't allow them to, to put it two sisters in the first three, because I know like, they wanted the character switch to be trans in the first, right. But then that wouldn't pass, they wouldn't fly. And so I mean, you can still read them as trans I think in the in the initial movies. But obviously that was a fight that they didn't win, right? It is interesting that not all sisters worked on this film. And so and the idea of identity and idea of I'm not going to be maybe part of something else, this is who I am and wanting to really embrace that and really say like, this is my name. And I don't want to dead name myself. I don't want to be a sister. This is who I am. And I mean, there's a lot of conversation in this new film about like, f- you to all you fanboys who co opted this and thought this was just a movie for coders, and for gamers and who took my red pill and made it into something disgusting. I'm going to tell you what this is about. I'm the director and I'm going to tell you very clearly what this movie is about politically. And it's going to be my story and I'm reclaiming my story again. And so I think that's part of that conversation too.

Shanny Luft: 10:00

Yeah, I was really struck by that I thought I found that fascinating also that they didn't work on it together. Lana was the only one who wanted to actually revisit this and tell the story. And specifically, Kelly, I think it's about what you're saying that maybe she was either more concerned or more insistent, or wanted to address the way that the original three movies had been co opted in ways that she hadn't intended them to be.

Kelly Wilz: 10:23

Can I read the full quote, because it's really pretty?

Shanny Luft: 10:26

Yes,

Kelly Wilz: 10:26

she said it, my dad died, and then his friend died, and then my mom died, I didn't really know how to process that kind of grief. I hadn't experienced it that closely, you know, their lives are going to end and yet it was still at--

Lana Wachowski Quote: 10:38

it was still like, really hard. And then my brain has always reached into my imagination. And one night, I was just crying, and I couldn't sleep. And suddenly, my brain just exploded this whole story. And I couldn't have my mom and dad and I couldn't talk to my mom. And yet, suddenly, I had Neo and Trinity, arguably, maybe the two most important characters in my life. And it was immediately comforting to have these two characters alive again. And it's super simple. And you can look at it and say, I Yeah, okay, these two people die. And okay, bring these two people back to life. And oh, does not feel good. Yeah, it did. And in simple, and this is what art does. And this is what stories do. And they comfort us. And they're important. And I was very non judgmental...

Kelly Wilz: 11:43

In the end credits of this film, she says, for my mom and dad, love is the genesis of everything. And I thought that was so pretty. I never watched the ending credits. But I was like, I better pay attention this time. And I love that she devoted this, that this is a love story. And then she devoted it to her dead parents, right? This is like, again, I was never a giant fan of the first three, I bawled my eyes off, in the theater watching this, because it was so emotional. And I felt like this is the most beautiful love story I've seen in a while. And when Trinity saves Neo at the end, and she's the one to fly away. Oh my gosh, I couldn't stop crying. So sorry about tangent there. But I just thought, well, isn't it great that that the matrix can be about love, and it's, it's about a lot of things. But at the end of the day, it's a frickin love story. And I just thought that was gorgeous.

Cary Elza: 12:33

Before I forget, it wanted to kind of go back to that 1999 idea again, because this this this original film is it was co opted from the get go. I mean, if you think of it as part of kind of a series of films that are coming out during that time, I like to think of the big three as office space, Fight Club and the matrix. So all of them come out really close to each other. And they're all about like a disaffected white guy, although Keanu Reeves is not white, right? He reads this white in this film, and who figures out that there's a way out of perception.

Kelly Wilz: 13:11

Yeah,

Cary Elza: 13:11

the perception that she has found himself trapped in and it ends with destruction, they all end with destruction. Fight Club is the total like collapse of capital and Office Space, you know, spoiler alert, like the whole building gets set on fire. But there's this idea that we need destruction in order to create a new world in order to reclaim the thing or honor our identity whatever that whole kind of set of ideas is pernicious and gross right at the turn of the century. And it is strong entities only grown grown in strength sense and yeah, so the red pill thing I think that it was very brave to say you know, this is a term that you have been using and you've been using it incorrectly without permission

Kelly Wilz: 14:06

And the rejection of the binary the idea being like they name his his company binary right like this is not subtle at all the fact that we here there is no choice over and over and over again. I love that like you cannot watch this movie and say that binaries are good or that they should exist right and to your point to carry don't all those three buoys ended in fire to an explosion like literal fire right so the burn it down sort of mentality and I think in this movie, we're burning down binaries we are living in the messy we are much more you know, open to the fact that like this was it was never red or blue. It was always like the choice has already been made an idea I did talking about tran-ness too like, there was never a choice to-- I've always been trans this was always who I was. The only choice was whether or not I chose to, you know, present in a certain way, and let other people know that this has been my identity for my entire time. Like we like we used to say when you know, talking about, you know, gay people that it's not a choice, right. It's biological blah, blah. I think as we've luckily moved on a lot, most conversations about like, this has always been who I am right? And so is it really a choice when this is exactly what my identity is?

Cary Elza: 15:24

The concept of synthesis is all over each of these films, but especially the third film and the fourth film. And in the end, the fourth film, we have the synth synth SPN Scythians, synthesis Viens, the machines who are working with the humans, yeah, there's no either or anymore. You know, there's right there's this sense of boldness, yes. And consideration for a variety of perspectives, right. And I do think that that's one thing does fourth, really successfully,

Shanny Luft: 15:56

I want to stay on this theme of binary-ness for men, because that seems to me to be one of the primary things that Lana Wachowski is thinking about when Neo is again, offered a red and blue pill, one of the characters says, look, at this point, you already know which one you're going to do, like at the point in which you're offered the pill. And that sort of takes some of the hot air out of this idea that you're choosing one path or the other. In fact, when when the choice is offered to you. By that point, you kind of know what you're going to do, no one is going to say, no, I'll take the blue pill because I'm not interested in hearing the truth. I've come this far in this movie,

Kelly Wilz: 16:30

right? Or when Morpheus is offered the red pill, again, like that's when that line comes, there is no choice, right? You know what you're going to do at this point, even if you don't remember who you are right now, because you've been remade into this different character. There just is no choice. Right. So I just think I think it's the whole conversation is just fascinating to any idea that like, everyone wants to be woken up from the truth, that there either is a choice to remain in the dark, or to find the truth. Maybe we know the truth, and we just don't want to come out of our pods. This film is so much smarter than people give it credit for. Like I just say, it's not just some like, stupid love action movie. Like there are so many smart themes in this movie.

Cary Elza: 17:10

Oh, weirdly, too, you know that. That's one thing that that some critics accused the third movie of they cop out, you know, they right like the people who want to stay in the matrix can stay in the matrix, the people who want to leave can leave. And so some some people have said that that's one of the big problems of the original trilogy is that it refuses to commit. And it allows the sheeple to stay asleep. Instead of instead of waking people up to the the actual reality of the world that they live in.

Shanny Luft: 17:40

That theme has been continued in the fourth movie, in that last conversation that Neo and Trinity have with the analyst, it's still on that idea that that some people are not going to want to leave the analyst is betting on the fact that the world that the analyst created was better.

Kelly Wilz: 17:56

Yeah,

Shanny Luft: 17:56

is the final theme of the fourth movie, really not that is similar to the where the third movie ends, which is some people are going to want to stay and some people were going to leave. And they went Trinity on one side. And then the analysts on the other side, I was curious about how you read that conversation in that debate between them.

Cary Elza: 18:12

So the analyst says that for 99.9% of people, you know, they're balanced on this precipice of Fear and Desire. They're always chasing something they owe, there's something that they want. And simultaneously, they're incredibly afraid that they're gonna lose what they already have.

Kelly Wilz: 18:31

Right?

Cary Elza: 18:31

And again, like if that doesn't describe the current state of affairs, like I don't know, what does. We're also afraid of losing what little we've managed to get and the privilege that we have, that we are that many people are so afraid of losing any modicum of privilege. And that creates,

Kelly Wilz: 18:52

yes,

Cary Elza: 18:53

wow. So many problems

Kelly Wilz: 18:55

Well, and going back to the rejection of the binary. He says like his predecessor, just believe in facts and figures. The analyst now is taking in humanity and facts and figures, because as you said, I mean, again, I wrote down the entire conversation because I think his monologue there. And I love Neil Patrick Harris, too, and he just did so great, right? But he said he never bothered to care about you know, that kind of stuff. But the only rule that matters is the one inside your head. And you people believe the craziest shit, why? What validates and makes your fictions real feelings, right? And this idea that we as a culture, he calls sheeple. He actually refers to humanity as sheeple. And again, he said, my productivity numbers have skyrocketed, because you all are just, you know, you you just think with your feelings, there's no rational thought and holy crap, right? Post truth era.

Cary Elza: 19:47

He says at one point feelings validate fictions and make them real.

Kelly Wilz: 19:51

Yeah,

Cary Elza: 19:52

I wrote that down too yes, indeed, Neil Patrick Harris.

Kelly Wilz: 19:58

Anything he said too me Here's the thing

Matrix Quote: 20:00

Here's the about the thing about feelings, there's so much easier to control than facts. Turns out in my matrix, the worst we treat you, the more we manipulate you, the more energy you produce.

Kelly Wilz: 20:12

I've been setting productivity records every year since I ta-- took over in the best part zero resistance.

Shanny Luft: 20:17

When I first started watching the movie, the very first time that this fourth one, I thought, why put Neo? Why have him remember anything? Why have Thomas Anderson remember anything about the matrix? Why have it be a video game? Because if you want him to stay in this stasis, if you don't want him to remember anything, then like, you know, have them work at a water processing plant, and not think about matrix at all. But what I thought was really interesting, Kelly, I thought you'd have some thoughts on this is that the analyst creates all that stuff as a way of kind of gaslighting Neo,

Kelly Wilz: 20:50

yeah,

Shanny Luft: 20:51

Neo is not going to forget his identity completely

Kelly Wilz: 20:54

correct

Shanny Luft: 20:55

part of him is going to have these flashes of memory of his previous life. So you have to address them. And the way you address them, is the way the analysts does by just saying there's something mentally wrong with you,

Kelly Wilz: 21:06

right.

Shanny Luft: 21:06

And therefore you need to take this medication and, and trying to trick Neo into not not reading the signs in front of him the way that he wants to.

Kelly Wilz: 21:16

That's why he puts Trinity Tiffany in the coffee shop, right? Let them get close enough that he's not going to if he has these memories, he can say, Well, it's because I see you in their coffee shop every day. And so there's a very easy way. And I think that's sort of the the brilliance of it, right? If he has these flashes, it's he can say, oh, it's because this person's actually in my life every day. And I have an emotional response to them in a way that can easily be like cast off as just like, well, it's so there's always an easy explanation. So I think that's sort of the layer of of like trickery happening with with the analyst,

Cary Elza: 21:49

Emily VanDerWerff in Vox. I don't know whether any of you read any of her work on this. But did you read the article on trauma that she wrote, I thought it was very smart. So you know, she talks about The Matrix. The new one is a really successful allegory of trauma. You know, the figure of the Analyst, right is supposed to be helping Neo through his psychosis to help him understand that the matrix is not a real world, but that the flashes of the matrix come through. Neil Patrick Harris even uses the term triggering,

Kelly Wilz: 22:26

yeah.

Cary Elza: 22:27

And to end the process of grounding that, you know, many of us in therapy are, are familiar with that. So you know, can you smell something? Can you feel something? Can you taste something, something that you see? So that process and the fact that we're using this terminology is very familiar to certain people, but where she also makes an argument, so you can read, you can have a really simplistic reading of this film, and say that, you know, modern therapeutic practices are bad like they she says they're designed to blind us from heart truths. But she says that there's also a really interesting kind of deeper interpretation of this film, which is suggesting that the endless invocation of trauma is actually working against the idea that popular culture has been using trauma as a cheap storytelling device. And that is bad.

Kelly Wilz: 23:23

Yeah,

Cary Elza: 23:23

Wha--what the Analyst does, right is take these character like, he's a fan, like he's a super fan. And he takes these characters and he puts them back in the matrix, he doesn't allow them to die. He doesn't give them peace. And you know, that's what we all do, right? When we have this nostalgic urge for these characters that we want them resurrected. We don't want to give them peace,

Kelly Wilz: 23:44

right?

Cary Elza: 23:45

But in doing so, it's a denial of closure. And again, I wish I could say this is my idea. This is not my idea. This is Emily VanDerWerff's idea. But it's a very interesting article about how the film invokes the process of working through trauma. And then also argues that recent films that have used trauma as a storytelling device are cheapening it,

Kelly Wilz: 24:04

right?

Cary Elza: 24:05

And that also rhymes with this idea in this film that the matrix takes stories, and it turns them into things that are trivial, tawdry, cheap, and and I think that there's this overall kind of statement being made here about the truth, trivialization of trauma.

Kelly Wilz: 24:23

Yeah,

Shanny Luft: 24:24

I just want to say that I'll include a link to that article that you're talking about in the show notes so that people can find the link.

Kelly Wilz: 24:29

Oh, perfect. I'm thinking about an article I read about cognitive behavioral therapy, not working for everyone. You know, it's the standard thing that therapists use counselors use whatever. But if you are in like, extreme pain, for example, and people think that it's psychosomatic, and yet you're actually like suffering from actual physical pain. It can be a form of gaslighting for a counselor to tell you that you just have to rethink your thoughts. So as many times as I tell myself to meditate, or do yoga, or try not to get these invasive thoughts in my head, the world's fucked right now.

Cary Elza: 24:59

Like again, In this idea of toxic individualism,

Kelly Wilz: 25:02

yes,

Cary Elza: 25:02

that we are all so you know, wrapped up in our own problems. And we've been told over and over again that we need to solve our own problems,

Kelly Wilz: 25:11

right.

Cary Elza: 25:11

And maybe the problem is--

Kelly Wilz: 25:12

we can't self care ourselves out of this. We cannot self care ourselves out of this. So I think there's a really interesting, I mean, there's a reason they made the Analyst a counselor, right, I think that's a really important choice. The idea that, again, this is a perfect way for him to sort of like it's, I gaslight Neo, but I think, again, that's just such a smart decision to have the analysts be that kind of character in that occupation.

Cary Elza: 25:36

Mm hmm. And that was, that's a great point, too, that the original architect was intentionally cold and arch, you know, and, and used very big words, and was, you know, kept kept a distance. And the Analyst instead is in warm space with great glasses and a cat. And so there's this this illusion of of closeness of warmness of familiarity.

Kelly Wilz: 26:01

Right?

Cary Elza: 26:02

It's far more effective as a population. But I don't think that this movie is calling shenanigans on therapy in general, I think that it is problematizing the idea that there is our responsibility to solve everything in ourself.

Kelly Wilz: 26:18

Yes.

Cary Elza: 26:19

And, and that this culture of self care and trying to do that can ultimately like blind us to systemic problems, right?

Shanny Luft: 26:29

You're reminding me another way that this fourth Matrix movie problematizes, the binary is, there are machines who are on the human side cipher, and the original movie was a human who is on the machine side. But this movie really fleshes it out and explores a much more complicated array of identities. There were machines that were that helped Neo get out of the matrix, they were machines that helped them rescue Trinity. This movie, I thought was trying to really explore a variety of kinds of identities, even between human what it means to be human, and what it means to be a machine in more complicated ways.

Kelly Wilz: 27:10

Well, and I wonder if this is a commentary on how we are our technology, right, and our technology has only, like enhanced our humanity for good and bad, right? If you look at like the way Twitter has helped, like civil rights movements with hashtags, I mean, if we look at the ways in which some of the social media can be really good, and also like, Oh, now we have Nazis, again, right? And so and I don't, because I think we're none of us are divorced from technology in a way, maybe we could have been more in the 1990s I don't know. But I feel like we're all an extension of our phones now. We actually carry technology on us at all times. And we are sort of we are all might be more plugged in more than we used to be. So I don't know if we can separate ourselves in a way that makes sense anymore. To be sort of anti technology or anti hardware. I don't know

Shanny Luft: 27:57

One last thing I'll ask you about. I have no idea to go anywhere. But it's something that struck me really watching the original movies I could really completely forgot was they are really into fetish culture.

Cary Elza: 28:07

Oh, yes.

Shanny Luft: 28:07

And S&M style and orgies?

Cary Elza: 28:10

Absolutely.

Shanny Luft: 28:10

There's an orgy in the middle of the of the second Matrix movie. And that the the the Merovingian he's got this whole kind of fetish nightclub. I remember the character I did not remember that style. I feel like they mainstreamed a certain style of clothes, cut leather and corsets and stuff

Cary Elza: 28:28

Starts bound, right?

Shanny Luft: 28:29

Yes, yes, exactly. Bound has that as well.

Cary Elza: 28:31

But I have I have to say, though, that, um, I had completely forgotten about the Merovingian scene in the second one. And I had remembered the, like, the rave. And the second movie where we're cutting back and forth between like the orgiastic rave, and Neo and Trinity doing it. And, and I always, I remembered that as seeing, you know, a little weird. But I had forgotten about the Merovingian scene where he like, gives the a woman some code in the chocolate cake. And

Shanny Luft: 29:06

she has an orgasm.

Cary Elza: 29:07

And so I mentioned this to my husband, and he's like, oh, yeah, that scene with the cake. Like, that was like the one thing from the movie that stuck in his mind. The second Matrix movie is super obsessed with sex. And in a way that's very different from the first one and the third one and then the fourth one, which are seeking to establish the new Trinity relationship is like pure and, and sweet and holy, even, I would argue, a third, and and the but the second one is like all about primitive human desires. And I had forgotten about that. And I don't have anything deep to say about it, but I did enjoy it.

Kelly Wilz: 29:49

well. And I wonder if elevating BDSM cultures because they're the best about consent because you have to have safe words and it's like a very clear conversation between people if you want to look Like models of like healthy intimacy BDSM culture is one of the healthiest because you have to have communication. So if they were trying to like uplift, healthier forms of intimacy that might be one of the reasons

Cary Elza: 30:11

Kelly that is a fantastic point. And then there's the I think that it starts with the the the kind of popularization of BDSM culture, I think starts with the Catwoman costume in Batman Returns.

Kelly Wilz: 30:28

I mean, I do think it's fascinating someone pointed out that like they thought that Carrie Anne Moss was the only straight white says character of the all the main characters everyone else is either clear, or they're not white or I mean, and I had to go back and like count cuz I don't I wasn't familiar with all of the actors. But I thought like that is a conscious decision. Like that's

Shanny Luft: 30:46

Yeah,

Kelly Wilz: 30:46

and that's pretty amazing for you know, it shouldn't be that amazing in 2022 But to have every main character, you do not have the sort of normative identity that we usually see and especially action film.

Shanny Luft: 31:00

You know what, Kelly, you just made me realize is that Keanu Reeves and Carrie-Anne Moss are roughly the same age.

Kelly Wilz: 31:05

Right?

Shanny Luft: 31:06

And that is really unusual. Right, Carrie-Anne Moss is I don't know if she's in her 40s or 50s

Kelly Wilz: 31:10

They're in their 50s

Cary Elza: 31:12

50s.

Shanny Luft: 31:12

Okay, so that it's interesting because if you know about Keanu Reeve's own relationship he he's a with a woman who was like roughly his same age in real life.

Kelly Wilz: 31:21

women who are age appropriate, which is not Leonardo DiCaprio, this is why I love Keanu. He dates age appropriate women

Cary Elza: 31:29

He is a national treasure, he must be protected at all costs.

Shanny Luft: 31:35

Yeah, and so the idea of an age appropriate relationship between a man and a woman that's really unusual, it I think it fits into the Wachowskis' commitment to representation, right? They're just really interested in representing as many different kinds of people and that includes people of different ages, something that is rare in Hollywood.

Cary Elza: 31:55

Honestly, that was one of my very favorite parts of this movie is that Carrie-Anne Moss was allowed to actually age and She still kick ass, right?

Kelly Wilz: 32:02

Yeah, Yeah,

Cary Elza: 32:04

so she's just as badass as she and she still wears badass outfits. She still is awesome. And she's allowed this agency and she makes the choices right. One of the important lines in the movie is Neo's, most important choice is not his to make.

Kelly Wilz: 32:20

Yes.

Cary Elza: 32:21

Oh, I love that.

Kelly Wilz: 32:22

Yeah.

Cary Elza: 32:23

Oh, well, this, it does feel like a movie that is trying to consciously to do something different with these characters.

Kelly Wilz: 32:33

And when she's like, don't call me fucking Tiffany, Chad. Like, I was just like, oh, yeah, like you feel that like, like female rage. I want to be more than just a mother, right? I want to work on my bikes and like you want to fit me into this box. And when I showed you that I could maybe be this character in this video game. You laughed at me. I don't like it when you laugh at me. Like she was allowed to be strong in a way that I again as a 50 year old woman. Yes, you're exactly right. Like this is amazing.

Shanny Luft: 33:01

it strikes me that the way that you gaslight, the Keanu Reeves character is you give him this job in which he used to be fairly successful. And he's trying to like recreate his success. And the way that Carrie-Anne Moss's character's gaslit is she's got a family.

Kelly Wilz: 33:15

Yeah,

Shanny Luft: 33:15

that commitment to these other people is keeping her from recognizing herself. It is so much fun to talk to the two of you. Thank you so much for this conversation. It was a total blast. I really

Kelly Wilz: 33:25

It was a joy. I feel smarter because I got to talk to you about and I also appreciate this movie a lot more than I did even I loved it already. But I love it more after talking to both of you.

Cary Elza: 33:36

Thank you so much. This is really wonderful.

Shanny Luft: 33:43

Thank you again to Kelly Wilz, professor of communications, and Cary Elza, associate professor of Media Studies at UWSP. If you enjoyed this episode of no cure for curiosity, please rate and review us in the podcast app you use and join our Facebook community. I would love to hear your thoughts about this conversation or anything about the Matrix films.

Gretel Stock: 34:04

This podcast is brought to you by University College at University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point. Our mission is to provide coordinated, intentional, and inclusive services and opportunities through our core values of connecting, supporting, collaborating, and engaging. Learn more about UW-Stevens Point and all our programs at uwsp.edu.