The Colbert Report and Catholicism

In the first episode of the second semester, we are curious about Stephen Colbert and American Catholicism.  So we invited Stephanie Brehm, author of America's Most Famous Catholic (According to Himself): Stephen Colbert and American Religion in the 21st Century.  And joining us is Mary Ellen O'Donnell, author of  Ingrained Habits: Growing up Catholic in Mid-Twentieth Century America.

Transcript

Shanny Luft: 0:09

Welcome back, everybody, to the start of the second semester of No Cure for Curiosity. I am Shanny Luft. Today, I'll be speaking with Stephanie Brehm. She is a faculty instructor at Northwestern's Master of Science in Higher Education Administration and Policy Program and Associate Chair at Hobart Women's Residential College. She earned her PhD in religious studies at Northwestern in 2017, where she specialized in American religious history and media in popular culture. In 2019, she published America's Most Famous Catholic According to Himself, Stephen Colbert, and American Religion in the 21st Century. And I also invited my friend Mary Ellen O'Donnell, who completed her PhD along with me at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill in religion in America. Mary Ellen published a fantastic book, Ingrained Habits Growing Up Catholic in Mid-20th Century America, and she teaches at the Department of Theology and Religious Studies at Villanova University. The Colbert Report ran from 2005 to 2014. And it's a little hard to describe. He was portraying a character that was satirizing Bill O'Reilly, but Stephen Colbert, his actual personality and identity, his feelings about America, his Catholic identity, all get wrapped into the show. I was a fan of the show, and so I jumped at the opportunity to talk to Stephanie and Mary Ellen about the place of contemporary Catholicism, where we are politically, and what influence the Colbert Report is having on our national political conversations today. Your book is about media studies and humor studies. You also talk about the culture wars, the history of American Catholicism, religious media infotainment, can you explain what infotainment means, and why it's relevant to to understanding Colbert?

Stephanie Brehm: 1:52

Yes, so infotainment has is a term that's been around probably since the 70s. But it's the merging of information and entertainment. So people usually use it pejoratively, right? They're using it as like, oh, that's infotaining, not informational. And so The Daily Show and The Colbert Report used that infotaining as their mechanism for their fake news shows which were actually quite informative. And how many people in the past 25 years have been receiving their news.

Mary Ellen O'Donnell: 2:24

But I have to ask, too, in some ways, the the language of humor is one language that you're speaking in. But then the idiom of Catholicism, you've got to take that on too, right, so it was that something that you had had some background in or had you studied it?

Stephanie Brehm: 2:38

My mom is Catholic, my dad, my sister, and I are Jewish. We come from an interfaith family, and we do all of it. So my mom was teaching CCD, when my dad was president of the synagogue. We have priests over for Passover and rabbis over for Christmas. So I have been immersed in a Catholic world as long as I've been alive, but I have always been an observer of it. You know, Jesus is Mommy's God kind of thing. But that is the personal basis I have in it. And then Florida State there were really great Catholic scholars, people who study Catholicism like Amy Koehlinger, and I worked with Bob Orsi and Sarah Taylor at Northwestern, and they both have experience in examining the Catholic world.

Mary Ellen O'Donnell: 3:19

The other interesting thing is that I just want to pick up on what you were talking about with his, that how people sort of were finding what they wanted to find, right, and identifying. It's just masterful, this, this use of religion, and this complicated Catholic identity. And Stephen Colbert had this kind of chameleon-like, aspect that you could find, you know, if you wanted to sort of take it him face value, you could have that aspect of it, or, you know, if you're saying, okay, no, this is really he's sort of poking fun at this. You can go in that direction. So it's pretty amazing.

Stephanie Brehm: 3:55

People I think were more confused by his religious identification. There were so many more articles that said, no, he's really Catholic in real life, because he was a litmus litmus test. You could say, okay, I think he's an atheist. Okay, I think he is conservative Catholic. Okay, I think he is a liberal Catholic, progressive Cath-, like, he fit everywhere along this spectrum. And people could read him however they wanted.

Shanny Luft: 4:18

One thing I learned in your book, Stephanie, is um, how beloved Stephen Colbert is among Catholic clergy.

Stephanie Brehm: 4:24

Yes.

Shanny Luft: 4:24

Right. The National Catholic Reporter made Stephen Colbert the runner-up Person of the Year. The winner, in case anyone's curious, was Pope Francis. He seemed really -- he continues to be -- really beloved by Catholic clergy.

Stephanie Brehm: 4:40

He loves clergy, right like, which, you know, reading Mary Ellen's book makes a lot of sense, right? He grew up in this 50s and 60s, you know, his older siblings were born in the 50s. He was born in the 60s, but in this mentality where he w-- his world was enveloped by Catholicism, and you know, priests and clergy after his dad died, they were coming over, and you know, being male role models, his mom would ask that of them. So, there's definitely this -- he has an affinity for Catholic, male authorities, and they share that affinity. And I don't know. I don't believe that, especially not now with his new show. Per--Conservative Catholics don't agree with that. Right. But progressive Catholics do. So I think it fell more along political lines, then solely religious identification lines.

Shanny Luft: 5:33

So, let's get into that. I'm really curious about similarities and differences between the character Colbert's Catholicism and the real guy's Catholicism, right, the real the real performer. Because as we were saying earlier, they're not opposite -- opposite presentations. The performer Colbert, in an interview once said, that he sometimes would put his true beliefs into the mouth of the character. And that's and at other times he was, you know, putting beliefs into his mouth that he was sort of critiquing or commenting on. So, how would you compare and contrast the real Catholicism of the performer versus the character that he was portraying? Is it just liberal versus conservative or something else?

Stephanie Brehm: 6:18

Not not entirely. So I think his personal Catholicism it is more emphasizing the heritage Catholicism that he grew up with. You know, he, he only talked about the sexual abuse crisis, the clerical sexual abuse crisis, a handful of times, and only one entire segment, in nine years, when like, this is a nine year period where this is happening. I was most surprised in doing my research, because I had always remembered it as being more there, right, that he had always talked about the sexual abuse crisis. And when I looked back, he didn't, because I was interpreting it with a liberal lens, and assuming he's, you know, combating the institution, but he's not. I think his personal Catholicism really is devoted to the institution.

Mary Ellen O'Donnell: 7:08

That's so interesting too -- yeah. I was curious about that, too, in that section about the sexual abuse was so enlightening, really, because it was like, how did how did he let this go? In some ways, you know, because it was just set up for that. But, but what's interesting is this idea that in your book, you do so beautifully show how he is wrestling with the structures like the church, right? And not exactly the faith. So he's not exactly taking on any kind of doctrines or dogmas per se, but he is taking on the structures. And yet at the same time, he has this kind of love for it. Right? I mean, he, so he loves, he does have this ultimate respect for the priests and the clergy. And therefore the hierarchy.

Stephanie Brehm: 8:00

Exactly. It's the same way I saw him doing with government. I see the real Colbert, he loves America. He's very patriotic, right? He's against aspects of the system that he doesn't see as working or actually, that he sees is hypocritical. And people, you know, they want to see his story as one of overcoming suffering, right, with his parents, his father, and his brothers dying in a plane crash when he was 10. Right. And so, this redemptive quality, he tried to, like, lay low with that, um, right. Like he's, he would often his theology is one of joy, which I don't think is solely, I don't think that's how every human sees Catholicism.

Mary Ellen O'Donnell: 8:46

Absolutely. And coming out of when he came out of in some ways, it's shocking that, that that's where he arrived, really. But in so in both the joy but then that deep respect for the suffering, like the discussion that you have about his conversation with Biden, in I think it was 2015, that was such a powerful, poignant moment, right, that, you know, these, these two people have had this kind of intense suffering, and they both have this Catholic connection, and he finds a way to sort of make room for that.

Stephanie Brehm: 9:18

Yeah, exactly. There was an interview with Anderson Cooper after the book was done, and I couldn't include it anymore. Anderson Cooper's mother had just passed away. And Colbert mother had passed away a few years before, so they had this really intense conversation about like, mothers and religion and faith and, and suffering and joy, and it was like a really poignant moment, and he's having these out of character. His Catholicism was not as progressive as the progressives would like and not as conservative as the Conservatives would like.

Shanny Luft: 9:51

So when Colbert--I want to talk about Catholic comedy. When Colbert is telling jokes, some of which are about Catholicism or about the Catholic Church or about Catholics. What is fair game for him to mock versus not? Right? Like, what what is okay? What did you get a sense of, sort of, where he, he felt comfortable critiquing or ridiculing or commenting on--versus things like you talked about the sex abuse scandal, which he just avoided talking about, mostly for nine years.

Stephanie Brehm: 10:22

Yeah, well, like Mary Ellen said, he, I think he felt okay. Pointing out the hypocritical aspects of the institution or specific individuals, but not at the theology itself. I think the things that I found really interesting where that some of the jokes he made about Christianity, were less Catholic specific. And when he did Catholic jokes, they were about his own identity or his heritage. So like, when he was interviewing another Catholic who had a large family, he would do Catholic names off. Can you name all your siblings who can name their siblings the fastest, right? Um, those kinds of 1950s 60s, like mid 20th century jokes that makes sense in a Catholic enclave, right? That don't make sense if you've never met a Catholic before, right?

Mary Ellen O'Donnell: 11:08

I loved the segment where, where he gives up Catholicism for Lent. And then he goes on this Catholic Bender and I mean, and and so it was that sort of, you know, he just goes through linearizes, all these things that he's done all these Catholic things he's done. And so as a Catholic who was like, oh, yeah, I know that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It works. And then from somebody who's like, oh, that's crazy. Catholics look at all those those crazy things they do, it works. And so you have this, kind of like that insider, like, Oh, I know the lingo, he can make fun of it. And then you can laugh with him. If you're an outsider or an insider, right?

Colbert Clip: 11:49

During the Lenten season, it's traditional for every Catholic to give up something that is important to him, or his self. And it's got to be something that means something big to them, okay? Something that really matters something it would be painful for them to do without. So for the next 40 days, I am giving up Catholicism. It's a difficult sacrifice, but that just shows my devotion to the great religion that I no longer practice.

Stephanie Brehm: 12:27

It works on so many levels, right? Like, it works for people who say, create, I don't know what Catholics do. But there's a Catholic materiality that is different than white Protestantism. And I know that that's a difference. Right? And it works for Catholics who say, I know exactly what he's talking about. Absolutely.

Shanny Luft: 12:45

With regard to it. So when he a couple times in the book, you mentioned co bear with sometimes joke about Pope Benedict's shoes. Apparently, he had expensive red leather Italian shoes on his butt is that the only critique Colbert had of Benedict, in other words, was it just was was the point of that joke of the kind of hypocrisy of lack of humility, you know, from someone who is professing Christian faith? Yeah. And

Stephanie Brehm: 13:17

I also think the, you know, the idea of people who take orders lack, you know, the lack of now with poverty, right, um, I think I think it goes shows opulence of the church. Right, that. But I also think, you know, when he, when Francis came around, Pope Francis, he put them in contradiction with one another. And so, Pope Francis would be the Jedi and Pope Benedict would be the stiff board, right? Like he would actually have these Star Wars comparisons, right, um, that, that demonstrate a good versus evil understanding. And I think it was more that he was tapping into the larger ethos, not even necessarily a Catholic ethos, but like a generational and, and global understanding of Francis is a Pope of the people right and playing into those stereotypes of them. I don't think he was adamantly against Benedict any more than he's, you know, I think people love Pope Francis and he was playing with that.

Shanny Luft: 14:21

But among American Catholics, that seems to reflect something that's actually that I perceive happening in at least American Catholicism. There are a group of Catholics who seem to favor Pope Francis and a group of Catholics who seem to favor Pope Benedict and Colbert got to get to portray each of them.

Mary Ellen O'Donnell: 14:41

Yeah, there's definitely teams these days. Right. There are definitely teams shiney point you know, that that Colbert gets to take both of these, I think is is so fair, but it does. It certainly highlights that idea that like it's your kind of an either or. Right So if you're team Benedict, it's gonna be hard for you to really come around on, on Francis and what he's doing. And if your team Francis, it's your have a hard time sort of trying to relate to everybody in this universal church. Right. And so, you know, it's, it's interesting to see how that so parallels the political situation to, you know, when you were saying Stephanie, how Colbert, excuse me, the character was saying, Benny's my guy. I couldn't help but think like, oh my gosh, is that setup? All the people who say like, well, Trump's my president, right. In some ways we have this, like, parallel divide that's happening. It's crazy.

Stephanie Brehm: 15:45

Definitely. Yeah. And I, I think, because of the way Catholicism is part and parcel of the political system of the US, especially now, right, like, Conservative Catholics align more with evangelicalism and certain Mormons than they do, like and progressive Catholics align more with, you know, some Methodists and Jews, right. Like, it's, there's the idea of a universal church has never been with with one soul message, right? Like, yes, the insert, there's an institutional message the same way there's an experienced message I

Shanny Luft: 16:25

want. The next thing to talk about related to Catholic comedians, is how many of them address the sex abuse scandal, it seems to me like Catholic comedians fit into two categories. There are people like Bill Maher, who use the Catholic sex abuse scandal to just bludgeon Catholicism. And then on the opposite end, are people like Jim Gaffigan, and Stephen Colbert, who don't talk about it at all? Or when they do? They talk about very rarely, they don't use it to damage the institutional church or critique the church. It doesn't undermine their faith. Right, in any way that's caused them to question their, their relationship to the church,

Stephanie Brehm: 17:08

at least not outwardly. We don't know. Yeah, right.

Shanny Luft: 17:11

At least not in the way that yeah, they're willing to discuss or that they ever have. And it struck me that there doesn't seem to be anything in between that it's like the only options are, use the sex abuse scandal as a way to demonize the church, or tread very, very lightly. And, and refer to it as little as possible only if you have to. I don't know, maybe that's because it's just not territory for comedians. It's just it's a real, it's a hard thing to make funny. I don't know, what do you think about that?

Mary Ellen O'Donnell: 17:41

I have to say that that was initially what I was thinking to, I mean, how do you make it funny, right? Because, um, you know, you just, there's no way to address the horrors of it, without acknowledging right suffering of it. And so, you know, clearly you have all sorts of ways of, of acknowledging hypocrisy within it, right of these people who are claiming to be the holders of old morality and the teachers of all the things that we should and should not do. You do doing the most horrific things, right. And so they're, you know, you can imagine, like, oh, there's an angle for making fun, but at the same time, like when you think through, okay, what actually happened? I don't know how you get to the other side. Right? I don't know what you think, Stephanie?

Stephanie Brehm: 18:34

I agree. And I you know, for me the the other option, like if we're, I would see the people who tread lightly as the middle path. And the other option would be apologists, right? And yeah, nobody's doing that. Right now in comedy anyway. Yeah, it definitely not in comedy. And so the critical part, like some people are using it to under, like undercut religion. That's definitely Bill Maher, and others are just using it because they want to undercut any institution, and it's like a marker and signifies institutions that are bad, right? And then those that tread lightly, I still think are the ones that for whom the theology and the faith are not to be mocked.

Shanny Luft: 19:19

I'm curious if you've found that Colbert is influential. And by that I mean is Do you think he has actually done anything to shape public perception of Catholicism?

Colbert Clip: 19:32

Speaking of awards, the Oxford English Dictionary has named its word of the year for 2016. And it's post truth, and I am pre enraged. First of all, post truth is not a word of the year. It's the two words of the year. Hyphens are for the week. Second, post truth is clearly just a rip off of my 2006 Word of the Year truthiness which

Shanny Luft: 19:59

you One of the things you're putting into it is a question that gets raised about whether Colbert is the harbinger of Donald Trump. And I've heard the performer co bear. Talk about the fact that there were, like, concepts that his character introduced like truthiness that he hasn't heard Trump talk about or tweet about. And so, Stephen Colbert, the performer, does himself see a connection between the character he portrayed and the I don't know, the public presentation of Donald Trump. So I'm curious what you think about his Colbert, influential in terms of politics is he influenced American Catholicism? What do you think? Yeah, I

Stephanie Brehm: 20:41

think he's definitely influenced politics. And I think, I think that was his goal. And so any other influence was a byproduct. And I think that's how Catholicism fits in with it. So I think for many Catholics, he, and only for Catholics, he was able to really speak to an experience that others had, and so people felt an affinity for that. There, there still are, one of the reasons why my book is necessary, is that there were so many people who said, but he's not really Catholic, like in real life like that, and knowing it, and that unawareness, of his Catholicism is still prevalent, so I don't think he actually changed how we think about Catholicism. I think he affirmed ways to be Catholic for certain Catholics. And I think he brought to the forefront, certain Catholic ideas that weren't necessarily given play elsewhere. So like James Martin talking about social justice, right. I don't know if that being seen as a Catholic theme was happening in other late night shows or infotainment shows.

Mary Ellen O'Donnell: 21:55

A follow up on this because Johnny, I had the same question. And, and, Stephen, you sort of set us up by question like setting up this question about, you know, is it possible that this emphasis on truthiness may have, in some ways paved a road to an election of Donald Trump? Right, like, maybe not that direct, but I you know, I wonder, is there something to this buying into the we just want to believe the stuff that we want to believe? Yeah,

Stephanie Brehm: 22:27

and I think I think also, for those who agree with the human Colbert, politically, I think, Colbert, the characters, truthiness, desensitized them. And so the idea was, I think for many Trump's not really a threat. This is a joke, right? And so the idea of taking this person humorously made it so that he was less scary, right, and it was less important. And I think for those who don't agree with Colbert are the human politically, it was what we've seen this before. This is exactly you know, I feel it in my gut, right. Like, the way that Colbert mocked George W. Bush became then the language that was able to be used later on with Trump. About my reality is different than your reality. My Truth is different than your truth. Um, and yeah, so I, I don't think Colbert alone did this, right. No, I'm

Mary Ellen O'Donnell: 23:29

not. Oh,

Stephanie Brehm: 23:30

I have two people. Right. He still only has one vote as a senator. And, but I do think there was a desensitization. I think it was in the ether that a bombastic person could be beloved, right. Um, and I think the way that he approached the quote, the character approached truth, definitely shaped fake news going forward.

Shanny Luft: 23:54

Stephanie and Bram is the author of America's most famous Catholic according to himself, Marilyn O'Donnell is the author of ingrained habits growing up Catholic in mid 20th century America. It's fantastic to talk to you both about American Catholicism about media about the field of Religious Studies. This is a great conversation. Thank you both so much. Thank you.

Mary Ellen O'Donnell: 24:15

This was a blast. Thanks, Danny.

Shanny Luft: 24:18

I hope you enjoyed the first episode of the second semester of no cure for curiosity. We have some great conversations lined up for this season. I'm really looking forward to sharing them with you and getting your thoughts and feedback on our Facebook page. no cure for curiosity. I'll see you in two weeks.

Gretel Stock: 24:37

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